Jonny Harrison, Digital Strategy Director at the7stars - Transcript
Rory:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Mail Unleashed. Brought to you by Marketreach. That's marketreach.co.uk. And on this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Jonny Harrison. And Jonny is the digital strategy director at the7stars.the7stars being a media agency. Which is, I think, a media planning agency. Pure and simple, isn't it?
Jonny:
Correct.
Rory:
But, first of all. I think we've obviously got to ask. the7stars. Why is it called the7stars?
Jonny:
So the7stars, is named after a pub. A pub very near to our current office, in Aldwych. I guess like all good businesses not named after seven people, who joined the agency. It was named after this specific pub. Where the idea of a media agency was first born. Actually, even our our sister agency, The Bountiful Cow. Then followed suit. What should we name this agency? We called it Bountiful Cow. Which was the other pub that we‚d always go to.
Rory:
The other nearby pub. Exactly. And it's interesting, of course, that you appear on a program effectively promoting the value of direct mail. While being head of digital strategy. So let's hear about that wonderful contradiction.
Jonny:
Yeah, it's always interesting. And again, I'm really pleased to be here today. I think, an interesting thing for me. So again, what is digital strategy for for an agency? And I think my colleagues and friends at different agencies may have a very similar job title. But our jobs may be actually slightly different. And I think what's interesting to me. Is when you look at, you know, the UK ad market at the moment. Around about, depending on what you read, 75% to 80%. Is digital in some way. I guess what I mean by that, is its ad-served in some way. So that could be digital audio. It might be programmatic out-of-home or all of those great things. And I think that's where, you know. You talk about kind of those small up and coming brands who are looking maybe to do their first,
their first dive into marketing.
For the very first time. I think there's automatically a, shift that happens, in let's use digital channels first. Let's test a bit of paid search. Let's test some social areas where we can, maybe have a little bit of spend. And we can start to grow that. I think where I'm really excited is the innovation that can happen across the market. I have to know all media channels. I don't, just have to be, you know. I can't just know those digital channels. And I think there's absolutely. I think one of the areas where fundamentally, digital marketing has got it wrong. Certainly in the 15 years I've been in the industry. Is we've never really got the creative right. And that's the big challenge I think we face. I think so many of our formats and maybe I'm talking specifically about display marketing at the moment. And I think, again where this comes back I guess, to mail. Is that opportunity for for physicality. Is something that is is absolutely important I think. Again, using the example of you know I guess, go to media channels or certainly in performance media. Your Googles, Meta, social etc. I think it's really easy to look past traditional media channels for their effectiveness. Because maybe you can't report on them. And on a real-time basis. I think the effectiveness is a real challenge. But I would say looking at, you know, from my perspective. Mail is really important in an omnichannel media campaign, for sure. And some of the innovation that's happening that we see in the rest of the market. Retail media, AI, creative adaptation. That can be applied as much to mail, as it can be applied to much of the digital ecosystem.
Rory:
Of course, the more revolutionary your idea. The more it requires people to change their behaviour. And the more you need behavioural change, the more you need marketing. To help people through it effectively.
Jonny:
Yeah.
Rory:
Electric cars are an interesting example. Because, you know one of the fascinating things there is. Everybody gets fixated on range and charging time. Which nobody talked about the petrol. Nobody talked about the range of their petrol car.
Jonny:
Yeah.
Rory:
And so media like mail, which have a proven record of actually getting, ooh that's interesting. I never thought of it like that before. Maybe I should give this a go. You know, I mean, the whole credit card industry was built on direct mail. Charities have been built on direct mail.
There's also something interesting, which is that digital companies instinctively don't like the idea. Because the natural tech mentality is to make everything digital.
Jonny:
I yeah, totally agree. I think there's something interesting there. You touch on especially around attention. So again, I think when I'm thinking about attention within the digital space and how that compares to mail. 2 in 3 consumers say that mail gives them their undivided attention. Now we will be battling across social and across video and the whole digital ecosystem for seconds of attention. That whole attention economy. We have fleeting moments, where we're trying to get that thumb-stopper creative. On Meta and the likes. And it's really easy to look over traditional media channels like mail. Where that attention is much, much greater and decluttered.
I think the clutter is a massive issue we have in digital. How many different ads you see. You know, just visit pretty much any news website and you're getting, you know. Tens of different, you know, banners across that site. Trying you know, say different products. I think mail is really interesting in that space. But I do think genuinely, it's a perception issue that we’re challenged with. When it comes to mail versus those digital channels.
I was listening to a podcast. One of the ‘Freakonomics’ podcast in the US. And they were talking about, mail specifically. And a company on there called it. Hand delivered communications. And I think just changing the perception. And, what does that really mean? And immediately, to the consumer that sounds more interesting than, essentially a direct mail. It just changes you like that. But even for me, it's how do you digitize that?
Rory:
And of course, yeah. I mean, the fact that it's old, we're talking about this. The irony of all this of course, is that direct mail was actually the first digital media. In the way that. If you worked in an advertising agency in 1986, 1988. Virtually nothing you did was computerised. Okay. Except, the direct marketing people, i.e. The people doing direct mail. Would have these enormous tapes that would arrive from some mainframe somewhere. In order to process the mailing list. It went from literally a period of 20 years. Literally the mailing list for a large company would occupy these enormous. I mean, now you could get an entire customer database on a cheap laptop. Okay. But back then, the only people who are really engaging with the world of computing and digitisation. Were the people doing addressable media. Everybody else was basically in the analog world, TV included. For another ten years, another 15 years. So it's quite strange that actually we were kind of their first.
Jonny:
I think that's really interesting. Talking about addressable media. I mean, it's not too long ago, when we're talking probably post lockdown. The real shift to data cleaning technology. How do we do addressable media more. I guess more effectively. How do we get hold of first party data or zero party data. More interestingly. So that we can take advantage of digital channels or connected TV channels. And target people in a more precise way. There’s pushes to try and be more precise in many, many, you know, different digital arenas. Because of cookie deprecation and everything else. And a push to be more precise within media. Well, that precision is already available. To many customers within mail. But it often gets overlooked as a media channel.
Rory:
You now have programmatic mail. Which is effectively, entirely digitally printed on demand. Which is no more painful to do, but it was historically fiddly. I worked in direct marketing for 15 years. And much to my depression, it had never occurred to me before. Which was that someone confessed to me at a dinner that the worst nightmare of any marketing person was being given, either the loyalty program or the direct marketing brief. Simply because, you know, things like the attention to detail required. And by the way. I mean, one of the interesting things about everything from AI to automation is that problem can at least be solved. To a large extent.
Jonny:
Absolutely. I would I would wholeheartedly agree of all of that. But the laziness is something that's really interesting. I think one of the things that fundamentally concerns me about the use of AI at the moment. Is how it can be used to shortcut creative. I think you don't come up with it's the obvious example. But you don't come up with the Cadbury's Gorilla ad, by not following best practice. And I think if you look at the majority of display creators. I want to be on your phone or on your laptop or, you know, on the way home. They all look the same.
Rory:
Having said that, very occasionally and it's rare. There's a banner that someone's put a little bit of love or ingenuity into. And by the way, the cut through it achieves. Just by dint of going someone's thought about that before they wrote it.
Jonny:
I do think, you know, that's why we do see also like brilliant examples within mail where it's slightly different. Well very very different formats. All shapes and sizes. And necessarily you have to think about what you're putting on that right. I think that is a big difference between templated display creative, even some video creative that we see. Especially some stuff that's fairly AI generated. It's ‘this will do’. I think sometimes.
Whereas with mail. Again, you know, you're capturing attention. You know at least you know, 60, 90 seconds plus. You know, one of the most highly attentive, media channels out there. You know, you've got to really make that make that count. I think because the attention can be so short. And it's a bit counterintuitive. But so shorts within other digital media channels. Probably it’s a bit more quantity rather than quality.
Rory:
134 seconds on average. We've heard is the attention span of a typical direct mail piece. There are also some very bright people who've argued that actually. What we ought to do, now that the only great virtue is tangibility. Is we ought to actually invest in lovely things that people want to keep. You know. Give people small things of value or utility. Because we are actually sending something physical. By putting a letter in a little slot on this thing. And if it tipped over, it was over 60g. Very ingenious little design. Okay, now I'm just trying to think that must have been introduced 13 years ago. I've still got that little thing. Okay. 13 years. You know, durability isn't bad for a piece of marketing communication.
Jonny:
Yeah, I think I think that's massive. And I think even, you know. One of our clients and you know, not mail specific. But even someone like a Gusto. Giving their customers something tangible. Like the free wooden spoon on your fifth box or whatever it might be now.
Rory:
I’ve got three of those.
Jonny:
Exactly. It is that tangibility, that physical thing. I think you can come back to one of your points earlier. If direct mail wasn't around previously. And it was a brand new channel tomorrow. I think the ability to have that. You know, physical communication.
Rory:
You’re right with that drone analogy. People go, this is incredible.
Jonny:
Yeah. Where could where can I do more of this? Knocking at our agency door for that. And I think that's the important part. We have to reiterate. Equally, I think that's also really, interesting when we think about the different kind of, channel mix you know. The best recipes might have multiple ingredients. If you've just got a single ingredient which might be your, you know, paid search, for example. You’re probably going to have a slightly less good, end product. Than if you know, if you're using multiples. So I really like that. Really like that as an analogy.
Rory:
One of my proudest moments. In terms of winning an argument. Was once persuading. In the end, the launch never happened. But I persuaded Google to launch a product using direct mail. Now, this seems completely absurd. Because they presumably have quite a lot of data. And they probably have an email address for practically everybody on the planet. Or some means of reaching them. And yet my argument was that in terms of making people think that something important and different was happening. And that they were part of a selective group who could participate in it. Mail conveyed that in a way that no real digital media could. But I think. I mean, two things I think. With the digital first businesses as you said. One of which is they disproportionately benefit from having some physical manifestation of what you are. Is all the more important.
Jonny:
I like that idea. And even one that springs to mind. And not a client of ours, but someone like Ocado. Online only business. But you know that that piece of communications which was their purple van. Seeing that on your. Go through the high street. Or one of your neighbours. All of a sudden. That's okay, they deliver in my area. This is really interesting. How can I how can I push that? I've seen, you know, from Marketreach some of the communications that the likes of Waitrose have done. Just delivering a van shaped piece of mail you know, in your letterbox. being able to see that and understand, oh this is telling me that Waitrose delivers in my area. I think that physicality is really interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Agree with that.
I think, that's really, really interesting. And something we talk to our clients about a lot actually. Effectiveness versus efficiency. I don't think any media is expensive. I don't think any media channel is expensive. It's only expensive. It doesn't drive the outcome that you're looking for. And if a media channel is more expensive, but drives a better lifetime value. Then surely that should be a positive thing for the business. Because you're driving more customers, who are better value for you. I think we've been lost in that kind of digital reporting ecosystem. Where we come back to CPA because it's an easy metric. It's a short term metric. And it can be useful in certain ways. But for comparison, it absolutely it does not tell you the value of the customer coming through. So we are doing, you know. Like all businesses, there is a lot of work going on to, measure lifetime value in a more effective way.
Rory:
I've got a perfect quote to illustrate that. Which was perfect fun to end. I had a brilliant copywriter colleague, Alistair Graham. And he said, the language of marketing is like the language of astrology. If you're talking to fellow believers, it sounds wonderful. And I think that's part of the problem. Jonny. It's been an absolute joy. Thank you very much indeed.
That's all for this episode of Mail Unleashed. Brought to you once again by the wonderful people at Marketreach. That's marketreach.co.uk If you're keen to unleash the power of direct mail, then head over to that website marketreach.co.uk That's all for this time. All that remains is to say a massive thanks to Jonny at the7stars. And see you next time. Thank you very much.